Does Trance Exist?

[Christian]

I am new to hypnosis and have been studying from various sources. Until watching Jonathan Royle (formerly Alex-Leroy) DVD, I was under the impression that "trance" was a excape of the mind to another state of consciousness. I was also under the impression there are various debths of "trance", Somnambulism being the deepest.

Now without getting into personal opinions about Jonathan Royle or his perspective of hypnosis, which he believes doesnt exist and is just pretending. Since he obviously is very well versed on hypnosis you cant help but entertain his opinions based on his experience and knowledge of the subject.

My question is since the trance state is somewhat of a phenomena, where does the rapid eye movement, or eyes rolled up in their eyes socket come from? Pretending? Asleep? Obviously the subject is in some kind of different state and not acting as Mr. Royle suggest.

I would love to hear opinions on this, as well as from Mr. Royle himself since I know he frequents this group.

Christian

[Conca]

I do believe the trance state exists, you read in all of these books that a trance is an altered state just like those you have in an elevator or a car etc. so if the definition of a trance is an altered state then its hard to argue that it doesn't exist.

I read Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind yesterday and his outlook on hypnosis is that anyone in hypnosis is pretending due to conformity. He says hypnosis doesn't exist. Although I have great respect for Derren (he is brilliant when it comes to amazing people), I think that he is wrong and that it is very real and if you want to find out, why not go and get hypnotised? Find out first hand. At least then you can formulate your own opinion.

P.S. It seems a lot of people hold this view so if you do find out why Mr. Royle believes this please let me know.

Hope I helped
Conca

[Christian]

Thanks Conca,

hypnosis is a distinct state, or simply a collection of compliant behaviours? I guess that makes two performers who believe the latter.

Ive listen to several hypnosis recordings and have fell asleep everytime. So I dont know yet if I have been in "trance". But good point, I will pursue it more.

Christian




Connor Wyatt said:

I do believe the trance state exists, you read in all of these books that a trance is an altered state just like those you have in an elevator or a car etc. so if the definition of a trance is an altered state then its had to argue that it doesnt exist.

I read Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind yesterday and his outlook on hypnosis is that anyone in hypnosis is pretending due to conformity. He says hypnosis doesnt exist. Although i have great respect for Derren (he is brilliant when it comes to amazing people), I think that he is wrong and that it is very real and if you want to find out, why not go and get hypnotized? Find out first hand.

Hope I helped
Conca

[Dennis Atkinson]

I too read Darren Brown's, Tricks of the Mind, a while back, mainly because I had never heard of him before, and whoever reviewed the book for the book store website gave it glowing remarks.

I found it difficult to read because it seemed quite self serving. And, I did not find it very fascinating ... in fact, I wish the book would have had an air valve so I could have atleast inflated balloons.



Connor Wyatt said:

I do believe the trance state exists, you read in all of these books that a trance is an altered state just like those you have in an elevator or a car etc. so if the definition of a trance is an altered state then its hard to argue that it doesn't exist.

I read Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind yesterday and his outlook on hypnosis is that anyone in hypnosis is pretending due to conformity. He says hypnosis doesn't exist. Although I have great respect for Derren (he is brilliant when it comes to amazing people), I think that he is wrong and that it is very real and if you want to find out, why not go and get hypnotised? Find out first hand. At least then you can formulate your own opinion.

P.S. It seems a lot of people hold this view so if you do find out why Mr. Royle believes this please let me know.

Hope I helped
Conca

[Conca]

Personally, I believe that hypnosis exists. That is two people who believe the latter but there is a significantly larger number of people who believe it is real. If it isn't real then how can the anesthesia be explained? How can you explain the miraculous healing of Milton Erickson? Also if it is not real how can it be such a large profession?

Just things to think about.

At the end of the day we can't make you believe it is real or unreal, that is your choice but one thing I have found, especially with hypnosis, is that you should never listen to one person. I have found that countless times I have believed the supposed findings of one hypnotist and they have turned out (in my experience) totally wrong.

So next time you listen to your recording, try to remember how some of the phrases made you feel. You may find that you will feel certain things such as relaxation.

What I'm getting to is:

You will find your own definition of what you think hypnosis and trance is, all you need is experience from both sides of the subject. (As the Hypnotist and the Client)

Hope I helped
Conca

[Christian]

Well beliefs and what is real is exactly why I am interested in hearing everyones views. There are allot of faith based organizations who hold simular type positions and that what I am trying to distict. I am not looking for convincing. I would just like to expound more on what is the "trance" state where eyes are rolling around. What is going on in the mind, are they comatose, or blindly following instructions.




Connor Wyatt said:

Personally, I believe that hypnosis exists. That is two people who believe the latter but there is a significantly larger number of people who believe it is real. If it isn't real then how can the anesthesia be explained? How can you explain the miraculous healing of Milton Erickson? Also if it is not real how can it be such a large profession?

Just things to think about.

At the end of the day we can't make you believe it is real or unreal, that is your choice but one thing I have found, especially with hypnosis, is that you should never listen to one person. I have found that countless times I have believed the supposed findings of one hypnotist and they have turned out (in my experience) totally wrong.

So next time you listen to your recording, try to remember how some of the phrases made you feel. You may find that you will feel certain things such as relaxation.

What I'm getting to is:

You will find your own definition of what you think hypnosis and trance is, all you need is experience from both sides of the subject. (As the Hypnotist and the Client)

Hope I helped
Conca

[Conca]

A largely held belief, which is held by me also, is that "a trance is an altered state in which the critical faculty is bypassed." It's that simple. You will always get exceptions of people trying to prove things wrong or trying to be different, but this is a widely held belief and if you look at the facts, e.g. the R.E.M. and the anesthesia etc. it is hard to believe otherwise.

It is definitely not comatose as they are conscious and responsive. If you are referring to the Esdaile state that is often called the hypnotic coma then I understand why you may think this, but it is just a very deep state (deeper than somnambulism) in which they do become unresponsive but this can be easily changed.

A trance is just a state that we all go through in various times of the day, imagine driving in your car, concentrating on the road listening to the radio. After a while you unconsciously zone out and you aren't really listening to the radio. This is a trance. Or when you get in an elevator and press the button, the elevator starts going up, and.... wait! Is this my stop? This is a trance.

It is an altered state in which people become more suggestible.

Conca

[John Cleesattel]

Christian,
I have found through personal research that the state we call trance is a naturally occurring condition for us as a species. It is not so much an "altered" state of mind, as it is a different but normal usage of how we respond to outside input.

Our coherent mind, often referred to as the conscious mind, and that I like to call the analytical mind, has as one of it's tasks: the analysis of the input that our senses receive from the outside world, to determine what is real and what is true. Some call this function "the critical factor".

This coherent mind of ours has many other capabilities as well: problem solving, logic, rationality, etc. The downside of having so many different capabilities is that it can only use them one at a time. You can prove this to yourself by trying to sing your favorite song out loud, while trying to count to ten in your head. You can jump back and forth between them very rapidly, but you cannot do them simultaneously.

Enter; the reason for our need of a trance state. A trance state allows us to automatically react to outside input using learned responses, without the filter of the coherent mind being used. Simple cause and effect, almost like a mental reflex action if you will. You have probably heard of the examples of trance states that are popular with hypnotists; like driving a car while concentrating on something else, or riding a bicycle, being lost in thought, etc. These are times when our mind automatically reacts to outside input for us because the coherent mind is busy doing something else.

So this is what I say a trance state is, why it exists, and how we use it. Hypnosis simply takes advantage of this trance capability of ours by realizing that the outside input that we automatically react to, can be in the form of a suggestion.

This is why I define hypnosis (having a separate meaning from trance); as simply a purposeful induction of a trance state, by whatever means is successful. One creates (or induces) the other.

The bottom line is that everyone has their idea (and in some cases "belief") of what hypnosis and trance is, or isn't (as the case may be). This is just one of those ideas, but to me, it seems to sum up the phenomena quite nicely as indicated by my research results.

I hope this helps your understanding
John

[Conca]

I think that Derren's book is good, for example the memory techniques are very useful and the unconscious behavior section. Also I like the self image section and the perception part is very useful too. I'm not one for magic tricks so I read that bit but ignored it really and also I disagree his views on hypnosis but there are a few good tips in there. All in all I think the book is worth the £7 which I payed for it purely for the memory section.

Do you use the perception tips he gives?

Conca

Dennis Atkinson said:

I too read Darren Brown's, Tricks of the Mind, a while back, mainly because I had never heard of him before, and whoever reviewed the book for the book store website gave it glowing remarks.
I found it difficult to read because it seemed quite self serving. And, I did not find it very fascinating ... in fact, I wish the book would have had an air valve so I could have atleast inflated balloons.


Connor Wyatt said:

I do believe the trance state exists, you read in all of these books that a trance is an altered state just like those you have in an elevator or a car etc. so if the definition of a trance is an altered state then its hard to argue that it doesn't exist.

I read Derren Brown's Tricks of the Mind yesterday and his outlook on hypnosis is that anyone in hypnosis is pretending due to conformity. He says hypnosis doesn't exist. Although I have great respect for Derren (he is brilliant when it comes to amazing people), I think that he is wrong and that it is very real and if you want to find out, why not go and get hypnotised? Find out first hand. At least then you can formulate your own opinion.

P.S. It seems a lot of people hold this view so if you do find out why Mr. Royle believes this please let me know.

Hope I helped
Conca

[Conca]

I like that definition, especially the hypnosis one. Hypnosis induces trance. Trance is the product of hypnosis.

John Cleesattel said:

Christian,
This is why I define hypnosis (having a separate meaning from trance); as simply a purposeful induction of a trance state, by whatever means is successful. One creates (or induces) the other.

[Conca]

Here you go Hypnosis Definitions

Maybe this will make it clearer but I think you'll struggle to beat this one:

"Hypnosis is a state of mind in which the critical faculty of the human is bypassed, and selective thinking established." [Dave Elman, Hypnotherapy, 1964: 26]

But have a look at that page and look in books and I can guarantee you that you will find hundreds of completely different definitions. So maybe I'm wrong in saying that you'll struggle to beat it, maybe your perception is completely different. Who's to say I'm wrong and you're right or that you're wrong or I'm right?

It is very hard to say.

Conca

[Kathleen Hanover]

Hi Christian,

I know my mind seems to work differently for me when I'm hypnotized ("in a trance") versus when I'm not. So presumably, my brain is working differently. So perhaps at some point someone will be able to define "trance" in terms of the mental state that is produced by X activity in X parts of the brain.

For example, I think that's what this report says, but since I'm not a neurologist, I'm not exactly sure:

MRI Study Shows How Hypnosis Eases Pain: Presented at ENS By Thomas S. May RHODES, GREECE -- June 19, 2007 -- Hypnosis can result in a significant reduction in pain awareness, and the neurophysiological correlates of this analgesic effect have now been identified by a functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) study that was presented here at the 17th Meeting of the European Neurological Society (ENS).

The study used 13 healthy subjects and tested them twice: once under hypnosis and once in a normal state. During each session, 200 laser stimuli with intensity ranging from 300 to 600 mJ were administered on the left hand. Subjects rated their sensations from P0 to P4 (P0: nothing perceived, P1: non-painful sensation, P2: mild pain, P3: moderate pain, P4: intense pain). The researchers used fMRI scans taken during the two sessions to assess activation levels in various brain regions in response to the stimulation.

The investigators found that there was a significant difference in the perception of higher intensity pain stimuli in the normal versus the hypnotic state (mean score 1.9±0.3 vs. 1.2±0.4, respectively), but not for the non-painful range of intensity (mean score 0.5±0.2 vs. 0.4±0.3, respectively).

(The article gets even more technical after this...you can read the rest here.

There have been a number of studies that involve scanning the brains of people under hypnosis. Most of the studies have revealed differences in brain activity in a hypnotized brain vs. a conscious brain. Here's another one, from WebMD.com:

What Hypnosis Does to the Brain Hypnosis May Lower Activity in Certain Brain Areas, Say Researchers By Miranda Hitti WebMD Health News

June 27, 2005 -- How does hypnosis work? It may lull brain areas into going along with suggestions made during hypnosis.

That theory was tested in a new hypnosis study. In the project, researchers used brain scans to watch the brain under the influence of hypnosis.

The experiment was done at Cornell University's medical school. The findings appear in Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

Hypnosis Study

Participants were 16 healthy young adults. Some were more influenced by hypnosis than others.

They had a seemingly simple task. Their job: Identify the color of a word on a computer screen.

The catch: The words were names of colors typed in a mismatched color. For instance, the word "green" might have appeared in red.

It's a classic brain-teaser used in mental studies.

Under hypnosis, subjects were told that their chore would be a breeze. They would have no problem reading the color names correctly, they were told.

That proved true for those who took to hypnosis best. Those who weren't as suggestible took about 10% longer to name the colors.

Why the Brain Believed It

Specialized MRI brain scans showed less activity in two areas of the hypnotized brain.

The first area is involved in visual processing. The other may be important in handling conflicts, say the researchers.

(read the rest of the story here.

And finally, here's a really, really good article on the subject:

The Mesmerized Mind
Scientists are unveiling how the brain works wh...
By Susan Gaidos

Pretty fun, huh?

Kathleen
"The Pretty Goodest Public Relations, Copywriting & Marketing Lady on the Planet"
Click @KathleenHanover to follow me on Twitter

[ricky strode]

What is true ? What is reality ? What is good ? What is bad ? Why does it really matter ? Everything differs at least a little bit between everyone, but each is true to them and that is their reality whether it be good, or bad in any aspect. Last, but not least, why does it really matter to them ? Everything is the way you see it and nothing more, or less to you. The question really is what will you do with it ? That being not an object, but your perception. In science, everything that holds a truth at certain varibles becomes false at certain point of different varibles. So really, doesn't that mean everything can be the same both true and false depending on everything in between the circumstance and the outcome ? Which all are just varibles in the equation of the strategy, process, or the many other names it can be called, depending on the use in any given thing possible.